"Infants laughing or crying is not becuase of memories of past lives."
The mixing of religious and non-religious beliefs in an individual.
Why the concept of original sin doesn't fly.
Uncontacted Indian tribe found in Brazil's Amazon
The Associated Press
Published: June 1, 2007
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil: An Indian tribe that has had no formal contact with Western civilization has been located in a remote Amazon region, federal authorities said Friday.
The Metyktire tribe, with about 87 members, was found last week in an area that is difficult to reach because of thick jungle and a lack of nearby rivers some 2,000 kilometers (1,200 miles) northwest of Rio de Janeiro, said Mario Moura, a spokesman for the Federal Indian Bureau, or Funai.
The tribe is a subgroup of the Kayapo tribe, and lives on its 4.9-million-hectare (12.1-million-acre) Menkregnoti Indian reservation, Moura said.
The Kayapo had no significant contact with the Metyktire until two tribe members inexplicably appeared at a Kayapo village last week, he said.
"We don't know why they decided to make contact now ... only time will tell. This is a very slow process," Moura said.
Uncontacted tribes are usually discovered when loggers and ranchers encroach on their territories.
Patrick Cunningham of the London-based Indigenous People's Cultural Support Trust, which is involved in an unrelated expedition in the region, said in an e-mail that the tribe speaks an archaic version of the Kayapo language and goes naked. Like many less-assimilated members of the Kayapo, the men wear penis sheaths and several have plates in their lower lips, he said. The women shave the tops of their heads.
Cunningham, who has not met the tribe, said the Kayapo believe it is was formed by a group of families who fled deeper into the forest when the pioneering Indian defender Orlando Villas Boas appeared in the area in the 1950s.
Megaron Txcucarramae, a Kayapo Indian and Funai representative in the region, met with the newly found group in Kremoro village and banned all but a medical team from entering or leaving, fearing the tribe could be more vulnerable to diseases than the Kayapo, Cunningham said.
Miriam Ross, a campaigner with the indigenous rights group Survival International, estimates there are more than 100 uncontacted tribes across the world.
"This proves that often we just don't know whether these people are there or not," Ross said by telephone from London.
About 700,000 Indians live in Brazil, mostly in the Amazon region. Some 400,000 live on reservations where they try to maintain their traditional culture, language and lifestyle.
Indians were pushed deeper into the jungle by settlers and it is relatively uncommon for the Indian Bureau to come across previously uncontacted native groups. The bureau said that it has learned from other Indians of a few uncontacted tribes in the western Amazon state, where the region's jungle is thickest.
Moura said anthropologists no longer attempt to contact those groups, but instead demarcate the land and wait for them to make contact.
Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/america/LA-GEN-Brazil-Ind...
After reading the above article, it should be pretty clear that there are still groups of people in the world who have no knowledge of Abrahamic religions and know nothing of the associated Holy books. This begs the question - why haven't God or Jesus revealed themselves to these types of tribes who obviously have no access to information (i.e. missionaries or fairy-ta,... I mean Holy books) that would lead them to the 'Saviour' or 'The Lord'? I'm guessing there are no spontaneous Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Protestants, etc. among these tribes. (Just for you Disciple Mike: The point is that 'The Holy Spirit' and other forces you cite as operating outside the scripture only seem to appear to people that believe in it already or at the very least have access to it. Why not w/those that don't?)
So in this Godless state these types of peoples have survived through many generations. Many unbaptized, un-circumsized generations w/unsaved souls. How does one rationalize this situation. In my mind there are only a few plausible options:
1. - God doesn't love these people and didn't feel it necessary to clue them in on salvation. Automatic ticket to hell for the jungle bunnies! Jesus sure does love everyone, excluding those living in parts of the world untouched by Christianity of course.
2. - Against all odds, these people have been exposed to the gospel of Christ and rejected it at some point in the past. They probably don't have written language (no other American natives do) and thus have no means of passing on organized religious beliefs over long time spans which would have to preclude any such attempt at spreading Gospel anyhow, no?. I don't know it didn't happen, but odds are definitely against this one.
3. - Original sin is a completely self-defeating concept that has no basis in reality and these people don't have any need to be saved because hell does not exist. Furthermore, the story from which the idea of original sin was pulled is obvious fiction and nobody needs to be 'saved' because there is nothing to be saved from.
I'll let you all guess which stance I find most appealing. But tell me what yours are. How to do you reconcile isolated peoples w/no opportunity to know your God w/the concept of original sin?
The Associated Press
Published: June 1, 2007
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil: An Indian tribe that has had no formal contact with Western civilization has been located in a remote Amazon region, federal authorities said Friday.
The Metyktire tribe, with about 87 members, was found last week in an area that is difficult to reach because of thick jungle and a lack of nearby rivers some 2,000 kilometers (1,200 miles) northwest of Rio de Janeiro, said Mario Moura, a spokesman for the Federal Indian Bureau, or Funai.
The tribe is a subgroup of the Kayapo tribe, and lives on its 4.9-million-hectare (12.1-million-acre) Menkregnoti Indian reservation, Moura said.
The Kayapo had no significant contact with the Metyktire until two tribe members inexplicably appeared at a Kayapo village last week, he said.
"We don't know why they decided to make contact now ... only time will tell. This is a very slow process," Moura said.
Uncontacted tribes are usually discovered when loggers and ranchers encroach on their territories.
Patrick Cunningham of the London-based Indigenous People's Cultural Support Trust, which is involved in an unrelated expedition in the region, said in an e-mail that the tribe speaks an archaic version of the Kayapo language and goes naked. Like many less-assimilated members of the Kayapo, the men wear penis sheaths and several have plates in their lower lips, he said. The women shave the tops of their heads.
Cunningham, who has not met the tribe, said the Kayapo believe it is was formed by a group of families who fled deeper into the forest when the pioneering Indian defender Orlando Villas Boas appeared in the area in the 1950s.
Megaron Txcucarramae, a Kayapo Indian and Funai representative in the region, met with the newly found group in Kremoro village and banned all but a medical team from entering or leaving, fearing the tribe could be more vulnerable to diseases than the Kayapo, Cunningham said.
Miriam Ross, a campaigner with the indigenous rights group Survival International, estimates there are more than 100 uncontacted tribes across the world.
"This proves that often we just don't know whether these people are there or not," Ross said by telephone from London.
About 700,000 Indians live in Brazil, mostly in the Amazon region. Some 400,000 live on reservations where they try to maintain their traditional culture, language and lifestyle.
Indians were pushed deeper into the jungle by settlers and it is relatively uncommon for the Indian Bureau to come across previously uncontacted native groups. The bureau said that it has learned from other Indians of a few uncontacted tribes in the western Amazon state, where the region's jungle is thickest.
Moura said anthropologists no longer attempt to contact those groups, but instead demarcate the land and wait for them to make contact.
Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/america/LA-GEN-Brazil-Ind...
After reading the above article, it should be pretty clear that there are still groups of people in the world who have no knowledge of Abrahamic religions and know nothing of the associated Holy books. This begs the question - why haven't God or Jesus revealed themselves to these types of tribes who obviously have no access to information (i.e. missionaries or fairy-ta,... I mean Holy books) that would lead them to the 'Saviour' or 'The Lord'? I'm guessing there are no spontaneous Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Protestants, etc. among these tribes. (Just for you Disciple Mike: The point is that 'The Holy Spirit' and other forces you cite as operating outside the scripture only seem to appear to people that believe in it already or at the very least have access to it. Why not w/those that don't?)
So in this Godless state these types of peoples have survived through many generations. Many unbaptized, un-circumsized generations w/unsaved souls. How does one rationalize this situation. In my mind there are only a few plausible options:
1. - God doesn't love these people and didn't feel it necessary to clue them in on salvation. Automatic ticket to hell for the jungle bunnies! Jesus sure does love everyone, excluding those living in parts of the world untouched by Christianity of course.
2. - Against all odds, these people have been exposed to the gospel of Christ and rejected it at some point in the past. They probably don't have written language (no other American natives do) and thus have no means of passing on organized religious beliefs over long time spans which would have to preclude any such attempt at spreading Gospel anyhow, no?. I don't know it didn't happen, but odds are definitely against this one.
3. - Original sin is a completely self-defeating concept that has no basis in reality and these people don't have any need to be saved because hell does not exist. Furthermore, the story from which the idea of original sin was pulled is obvious fiction and nobody needs to be 'saved' because there is nothing to be saved from.
I'll let you all guess which stance I find most appealing. But tell me what yours are. How to do you reconcile isolated peoples w/no opportunity to know your God w/the concept of original sin?
Views: 2
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Khem the Is Real-ite on -
Great discussion! Anything to lighten the load of spam.
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Permalink Reply by dattaswami on -
People are posing as if they are pure in this birth by saying like this. Infact, for all the previous deeds, the soul was treated completely in the upper world. When the soul takes birth in this world it is born with “Karmasesha”, which means not the remains of the action. It means the remains of that quality (Samskara or Vasana) in the soul. When a thief was strongly beaten in the police station for his action of theft, he comes out with a subtle seed of that quality. Due to the beating, that quality was very much reduced but did not vanish. This seed is in the form of quality, which is a wrong modification of knowledge and it will never be vanished by the fruit because the fruit is also a form of action. This means action cannot destroy the quality. Only the right knowledge, which is the correct modification of the knowledge, can remove that quality. The punishment, which is also a form of action, cannot destroy the quality.
The agony, which is also another wrong modification of knowledge, produced during the punishment, cannot destroy this quality. This seed is called ‘Karmasesha’ or ‘Sanchita’. Therefore ‘Karmasesha’ or ‘Sanchita’ does not mean the balance of the results. It only means the balance of the quality, which is responsible for the action. When the soul is reborn, it gets a congenial atmosphere according to its seed. The seed starts germinating and this stage of the quality is called ‘Prarabdha’. The seed slowly grows into a tree. The soul becomes very active and does a series of deeds. The fruits of these deeds will be received by the soul in the upper world. Such future fruits are called ‘Aagaami’. But some vigorous deeds give fruits in this world itself. The series of thefts of a thief are recorded in the police station (Aagaami), but sometimes the householder even before going to the police station punishes the thief. Thus the effects in this world are only the fruits of some serious actions of the soul done in this world itself.
The most serious sin done in this world is forgetting the Lord who gave so many facilities in this world without any selfishness. Even though people are praying the Lord; their love is with selfishness only. The love is not true if selfishness exists. There is no light if darkness exists. Therefore the human being is committing this greatest sin and is receiving the result of this sin in this life itself because the sin is so serious! However, the atheists are going to be punished in the upper world only for this greatest sin. The reason is that they are used to examine the faith of the devotees of the Lord. Seeing the happy life of an atheist in this world should not mislead a devotee.
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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on -
dattaswami says:
"This means action cannot destroy the quality. Only the right knowledge".
For me this point is very subtle. Can rightful action offset the effects of wrongful action?
As I understand it, sin resides witih in the form of acquired negative traits or Sanskaras.
Until the negativity surrounding the trait can be removed, the sin remains acquired - trapped within me. I can make amends all I wish. I can even pay restitution but the removal of sin is more subtle than that.
Knowledge, of the divine godly order, is required for spiritual transformation but this knowledge can only be applied through the power of the intellect. This power is enhanced or magnified when one's mind is coupled with God through the devotion and remembrance..
This coupling is an integral ingredient for the removal of sin and subsequent self-transformation or return home to our original state.
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Permalink Reply by dattaswami on
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No good deed can cancel the bad deed.
I will give you a small example.
A daughter-in-law is serving her mother-in-law or father-in-law. The service is inevitable. If the service is done with good intention by treating the father-in-law as father or mother-in-law as mother, the good fruit in heaven is fully enjoyed. Suppose the daughter-in-law serves them sincerely due to unavoidable circumstances and scolds them with hatred in mind, what is the result? The good fruit in heaven is reduced to half and half bad fruit appears in the hell for the bad intention.
The good fruit of good deed can never cancel the bad fruit of bad deed. Fruits of goods deeds and bad deeds have to be enjoyed separately. If you create a provision to cancel a bad deed by doing a good deed, every one will commit sins by emotion and then will try to cancel the sins later on by doing good deeds. Therefore, when the Priest says that by doing a ritual, all your sins are destroyed, it is a point of climax of ignorance. No good deed can cancel the bad deed.
Kauravas(demons) had ninety nine per cent sins and one per cent good deeds. They went to heaven first to enjoy the little good deeds and went to hell later on to enjoy the major bad deeds. Pandavas(devotees) are vice-versa and hence went to hell first and then to heaven later on. In both cases, mutual cancellation is not exhibited as we see in the Mahabharata (Swargarohana parva). Now, I pity the daughter-in-law who has sincerely served the in-laws but went to hell simply for the sake of bad intention. The daughter-in-law who has not served in-laws with bad intention goes to permanent hell. The daughter-in-law who has served her in-laws sincerely but had bad intention in her mind goes to both hell and heaven separately. The daughter-in-law who has served her in-laws with good intention thinking them as her own parents has gone to permanent heaven. The daughter-in-law who has good intention in her mind to serve her in-laws will some how serve them directly or indirectly and will not go to hell.
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Permalink Reply by dattaswami on
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The good and bad will have their own results separately and will not cancel each other
The administration of the country through Government and courts is integrated with the underlying invisible administration of God. Every judge on this earth is controlled by God who is the ultimate divine judge. Some times, the judge in the court is mislead and gives wrong judgment so that the sinner is benefited and a good fellow is put to loss. The reason for this is that the good fellow now was a sinner in the previous birth or in the earlier time of this birth and grabbed the money or some form of wealth like work of the present sinner. The wrong judgment did the final justice only by the will of God. The case is closed here. But if you are a devotee of God, you will be compensated with some wealth elsewhere.
You need not be upset with the wrong judgment because you are unaware of the complete background of the case. Your devotion to God has its own fruit separately and will not interfere with the judiciary system. The good and bad will have their own results separately and will not cancel each other. If good can cancel bad, every one will be tempted to do bad in a pressing situation so that it can be cancelled by doing some good later on. You expect to win the case in the court by your devotion to God. But the judgment of God has its own analysis and is not affected by any other factor except the strict procedure of the constitution of God for the deeds and their relevant fruits.
The administration of God is always without any blame and some times people criticize God blaming that God is sleeping. Actually your ignorance is your sleep and therefore you are blaming God without knowing the complete background. People expect practical results for theoretical devotion. They ask for large and thick bread by supplying a spoon of wet flour! Either the bread will be large and thin or the bread will be small and thick for flour. You are trying to soap God by flattering Him through prayers or by expressing your exceptional talent in begging (like crying etc.). God is aware of every thing and fools you in return by dragging the good fruits from the next birth with reduced value and giving them to you.
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Permalink Reply by Dane on -
Original sin is B.S.! Every human has a 'moral compass'. All of them are cultural in context. A groups religion is *only* a part of it's culture. It's okay to stone people to death in Saudi Arabia, but not in Isreal, although this is where the custom began (according to the OT Bible). It's okay to own slaves in the OT Bible (and I cannot find a reference in the NT Bible where it is forbidden), but it is against the customs of almost all countries now. Why is it unlawful now, but not then and there? Because it clashes with modern cultures, no matter where they are located.
I like to look at the 'COEXIST' bumper stickers and laugh. This isn't because of my lack of religion, it's because it include Buddhists. It's funny to include Buddhists because 'fundamentalists' of each religion are causes of separation and violence, yet I can't think of any fundamentalist Buddhists that cause violence. Each Abrahamic religion does, but not fundie Buddhists.
Lastly, responding to the person claiming issues because of 'reincarnation'. Where is your proof? There is zero proof of reincarnation. The issue with this idea though isn't even that fact that there is no evidence, the main problem with holding this belief is that there have been billions of people on the earth, and such an insignificant amount can "remember" past lives that it's laughable. Really, I even a million people had these 'memories', or could supposedly 'channel' past lives (as some claim to be able to do), it does not amount to any kind of evidence at all.
Let's get with reality here - we are primates. We live in communities, have families, and as such must have some common rules amongst ourselves to do so in. Such rules are inate is us because of the groups we live in and the fact that they help us live together. Groups that choose to live by a common set of societal rules are called cultures. Those that live outside the rule system are called outlaws, but only by that culture (i.e. prime example is the current U.S.+Western Europe vs. most "Islamic" countries).
Original sin is dead, and it's dead because all rules in human societies are reletivistic rules, subject to the society in which they originate.
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Permalink Reply by dattaswami on
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It is true that a few people exploited the concept of God for personal benefits. But, based on the few exceptions, you should not remove the basic system itself. A few railway accidents happen and due to such accidents, you should not cancel all the trains. You should concentrate to avoid the accidents. Similarly, some students might have copied in the examinations. Try to catch, such students. But, do not remove the system of examination itself. The system serves majority, doing lot of good. You forget the vast positive side of the system based on the minor negative side. The concept of God controls the sin in the society. If the concept of God is removed, lot of people will do lot of sins since already the ways to escape the punishment in courts are already available. The society will be crushed into pieces in the absence of the fear for sin. If God disappears, the hell disappears subsequently.
The concept of sin will drown and destroy the society like a Tsunami. However, this does not mean that the concept of God is again a created view only to save the society. Such conclusions are not correct. The concept of God is basically true and we have explained the positive side of such concept. It is a real concept and hence, the positive side is also real. Of course, the minor negative side is also real and control should be implemented to check-up such negative exploitations.
God Himself comes down in human form to give practical proof for the existence of the unimaginable God through the exhibition of unimaginable events called as miracles. Jesus told that He has come down to fulfill, what is said in the scripture. Krishna also said that He came down since there is a necessity and He said that He will come down whenever there is a necessity. The necessity is the requirement of practical proof for the theoretical explanation of God given in the scripture. Then only, the validity comes. Science is valid since every concept in the book is experimentally proved in the laboratory. A student of science always attends the practical class in the laboratory after the theory class. The doubt about the existence of God is quite natural because there is every chance to doubt about the existence of anything, which is not understood even by intensive imagination. The human incarnation declares the existence of God after giving the practical proof. In fact, people experience the unimaginable events in their life, which indicate God. But, people do not care to analyze and remember God thereby.
Even if we dispose all the miracles as magic show without careful analysis, the existence of unimaginable boundary of universe, which can be realized by anybody at anytime, is a clear proof for existence of unimaginable entity called as God.
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