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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on November 5, 2011 at 9:07pm

Are these stories not ways of telling truth according to the limited vocabulary of the day?

Actually, there is no no-thing.  There is only some-thing.  We are clearly involved in some-thing. 
There is no nothing.

The nothing spoken of here points us to the vacuum in which can be found things - houses, trees and particles. . . .

The Greeks and and some before them spoke of Atoms (and Atmas).  Today, we understand that this unit is comprised of infinitesimally smaller particles until eventually-eventually we arrive at the boundary or border science of quantum mechanics and particle physics. 

This is not to say that it is not possible to build larger machines (devices) to measure and identify increasingly smaller particles.  It is to say that it may be a long times, given the current financial circumstance of the world today. . .  before we get to the Higgs - God Particle . . . that which gives mass all other particles.

So what can one actually hang on no-thing?

NOTHING!

 

Here, the terms refers to the vacuum.

So what is the vacuum? 

Is it not the place where particles and other substances becomes so infinitesimal as to vibrate at such levels that they transcend the SOL.  This can only mentioned metaphorically. 

Is this not what has been happening over all these years?  The sun represents the Speed of Light (SOL) and somehow we know that that which is worthy of worship is beyond that (SOL).

Yes, we are all almost as equally stupid as the other. 

Conversely, we nourish the other with the substance or our own imaginings no matter how inconsequential they may seem.  When one puts them out there one can see what, if anything, returns.  You see, it is all about what returns (from the last cycle).  It is all about what you put out that determines what one receives.  Else, we must shift our discussion to arbitrarinous. . . .  I believe that Chaos is not sustainable.  It takes too much energy and effort to sustain.

Balance (equilibrium), or the path of least resistance, is a much more natural state.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by doug on November 11, 2011 at 2:06am

To declare "the limited vocabulary of the day" is a gross assumption.  It is based upon evolution, I believe.  Most studies that I recall, indicate that older languages were more precise than those now, and that current vocabulary is the one that is more "limited".  Surely we have new words for things that did not exist a few decades ago, but I think that hardly counts.  

As I am certain you understand, when the Bible says that the earth is "hung upon nothing", such a statement is in stark contrast to other religions that decribe the earth as being held or supported by something or someone "tangible". 

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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on November 11, 2011 at 8:59pm

once again doug, you point out the imprecision of what I try to say.

The vocabulary was limited by our standard but the meaning of expression was, let's agree, far more precise than that which we garner today.  Our words and phrases may be more specific but our meaning is not. Is that what you suggest?

Yes, from this POV, my assumptions are vague and imprecise.  But what is it what you imply - that in ages gone by that souls communicated with more precision than we do here today? If I were to adopt this POV, I would assume that we were more in touch with ourselves, in days gone by, than we are with eachother today.

 

Think about it.  A day we call paradise descended into this hell in which we currently co-exist.  doug, do you suggest we move from order to disorder along this path we traverse?  Is this a biblical assertion or one of my imaginings?

 

If you could reference even one of these references that recalls one of these earlier languages that more precise than that which follows I would appreciate this.

 

My personal understanding, according to the teachings of Prajapita Brahma, are that we are souls here in this physical existence called matter. It is here that we come to express - each at our own appointed moment in time.  Are we not in accord on this?

 

Certainly, when the bible tells us that the earth (matter) is hung on nothing, one must pay attention.  What is meant by nothing - . . . .  no - thing? Today, we speak of the eternal cycle of time.  Is this not the no-thing?

The gross assumption is our assumption doug.  Are you suggesting that to read the writings of the ancients is like reading what you write to me - easy?

What you say and what I say is easy to understand in terms of meaning and intent.  Does your understanding not incorporate the notion of entropy - and the descent of higher knowledge into that of the lower life - depending on means????

doug, if limited vocabulary is a gross assumption then tell us of you universal assertion?????

I suspect it is it not new or much different from that of those other than you.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by doug on November 12, 2011 at 10:19pm

Kernel,

First of all, let me apologize for not giving references, as you indicate I should.  I am not at home right now, so so not have access to my references.  However, just from a Bible POV, God created Adam with a wealth of knowledge when he was put on the earth in the Garden of Eden, and all his progeny, no doubt, had that wealth of information available to them also.  After the flood, and after Noah and his family repopulated the earth, they had very limited access to the same knowledge from before the flood, and so it was mostly by memory, I would suspect.  And so since then, as an overview, slowly man has attempted to regain what was lost knowledge-wise, and we are still in that state now to some extent:  ever increasing in knowledge for the past many centuries.   But my point is that original man probably had more knowledge than present man...as there is nothing new under the sun.  (The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. [Ecccl1.9])

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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on November 14, 2011 at 8:34am

Yes, the bible says the earth "hung upon nothing". I don't know to which degree this contrasts with what other religions write but here's what Abraham's ancestors were thinking and talking about:

Nasadiya Sukta - Rig Veda  10:129
(Creation Hymn )

Then there was neither existence nor non-existence.
There was no space(air?) nor sky beyond.
What covered everything? Where? In whose protection?
Was there water, deep and bottomless?

There was neither death nor immortality then,
There was no sign of night or day.
That One breathed all by self without any outside support,
Other than that there was nothing else beyond.

There was darkness all wrapped around by darkness,
and all was water then.
The life force which was covered with void arose through
the power of heat(Tapas).

Then arose desire (Love?) which was the primal seed of mind,
Seers searching for knowledge in their heart
found existence in non-existence.

A ray of light energy cut across the dark and gloomy abyss.
Was it beneath? Was it above? who can answer this?
There were bearers of seed and mighty forces,
Pushed from below and forward move above.

Who really knows? Who can confidently declare it?
From which was it born? Who gave raise to this creation?
Even the Gods came subsequent to creation,
Then who can reveal from whence it arose?

That out of which creation arose,
whether it formed by itself or it did not,
He who oversees it from the highest heaven,
only he knows or maybe He does not.

 - - - - - - - - - - -

MORE

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Permalink Reply by doug on November 14, 2011 at 4:35pm

Kernel,

Very interesting.  And by reading this intently, I find that it lines up well with what the Bible itself says.  It also correlates well with my understanding of the inception of the Hindu religion...which is that is basically is a corruption of the Bible, for the primary purpose of keeping the caste system in place (that is an oversimplification).  I have attempted to retrieve my resource for that comment for more than 30 years, and have thusfar been unable to (which I suspect sounds lame).   Nonetheless, I am grateful to you for posting this Creation Hymn. 

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Permalink Reply by socratus on November 14, 2011 at 8:47pm

There is only one religion, although there are a hundred versions of it.
/ B. Shaw /

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Permalink Reply by doug on November 15, 2011 at 5:53am

And many, if not most, of the versions are simply wrong.  If they do not teach the truth, then they are teaching lies...this is no in between.  And to take it a step further, Jesus said he was the truth, so that if Jesus is not taught (for who he actually was/is; ie, the only way of reaching God), then error is being taught.  A foundation built on error benefits a person very little.    

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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on November 15, 2011 at 9:55am

doug, I think we must be careful to not confuse knowledge with the implementation of that knowledge.  The system of domination called the caste system of India is no less oppressive to some than our economic system here in the West.  One class seems to dominate the next by whatever means is available.  In ancient Jerusalem was it not the Romans who dominated the Priestly Class and the Priestly class that dominated the common people?  Did Jesus Himself not address these fundamental issues and discrepancies? 

This creation hymn predates the caste system by 1000+ years and relates to the caste (class) system in India about as much as The Story of Genesis relates the American Style Capitalism and class domination it supports - 1% of the population supporting 99% of the wealth. 

doug, we must be careful not to confuse the divine word and inspired scriptures with human interpretations and behaviors.  Often it is our limited perceptions or understandings or points of view that are the cause of misunderstandings.  It is not any one religion that necessarily takes is closer or further from God, it is our understandings and implementations that make the difference.  Quite frankly I have found great souls who emerge from each great religion.  No one denomination within the family or world religions seems to dominate.  Would you disagree?

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Permalink Reply by Kernel John on November 15, 2011 at 10:01am

All we can say with certainty is that some who wrote of him decades later, around the time the temple was sacked, said these things.  Did Jesus both name himself "The Son of Man"(Mark 8:31) and the "Son of God"?

Nevertheless, Mark's account tells us many things.

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Permalink Reply by doug on November 17, 2011 at 8:01am

Kernel,

In Matt 16.15-17, Jesus says that he is the son of God also.

I should not have brought up the issue of the caste system, since I do not have my reference, as I indicated.  But nonetheless,  it is considerably more severe and restraining than that of the western economic system.

However, what you also say about great souls having emerged from each religion may be true...I do not argue that, but I do argue that only "saved" or redeemed souls have ever come out of true simple adherence to Christianity...in that Jesus is the only way to God the Father (though that is not to say, of course that most people who call themselves Christian are great souls...only that their souls are redeemed, if they have done what Jesus said to do:   call upon him) .  And I guess I will go one step further also, and add that it is unlikely that any great souls ever came out of Islam...at least, surely not the founder of Islam...there was nothing at all great about him.     

Finally...I do not understand your comment that "The Story of Genesis relates the American Style Capitalism".  You lost me there.

 

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Permalink Reply by socratus on November 17, 2011 at 10:46am



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