"Yes Roman, our ideas and beliefs can be thought of as territory.
If they are fundamental to…"
The mixing of religious and non-religious beliefs in an individual.
Good/Evil- Perfect Blue and Plastic Puppies- Revisited
I am reposting this fresh, but it is an old discussion. Feel free to search "Plastic Puppies" to pull up the previous one.
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A common question I have to field is “Why would a perfect God create anything supposedly imperfect?” It often is used as a “endgame” to a conversation about mans fall from grace and the like. Why would a perfect God create a creature in His own image that could screw up so bad?
My answer may appear simplistic, but simple answers are most often closest to the mark. (A concept often stated by our illustrious Sidian himself)
Take a sheet of twenty shades of blue. Ask people to pick the “Perfect Blue”. You find answers from one end of the paper to the other. Point being, perfection depends on who you ask. In the aspect of Deity, you would have to ask God what He considers perfect and what He wouldn’t. Nobody else’s opinion would matter much, just like nobody else’s opinion of blue will change my answer. None of us would brook anyone telling us they what our "Perfect Blue". It's my blue, I'll pick it.
In matters of His creation, God gets to set the rules for perfect. Just like we won’t let anyone else tell us what is the “Perfect Blue”, God has His idea of perfection in creation. Our opinions don’t matter.
We don’t do social sovereignty well. I think that is because we have all but eliminated it in our social and governmental structure. We consider dictatorships repressive regimes, reveling in our democracy. Democracy for humans is good. We find a “High Sovereign” with ultimate authority is disconcerting. We don’t want anybody telling us what to do.
In God, however, we find a surprise. He allows us to go our own way. There are, however, quite severe consequences to rebuking God’s sovereignty. Is that imperfection? I wouldn’t do it that way myself, but my opinions fall into the category of “Of Little Consequence”. My ideas of perfect communal relations between God and man have no bearing
Do I understand where God is coming from? Perhaps to what extent an omnisciently challenged individual might. That is because I have owned dogs and cats most of my life.
Our current dog, picked by my wife, is one of those hairless Chinese Crested. Talk about an individual’s sense of “The Perfect Dog”.
The cool thing is, this dog loves me. For what ever reason, when I go into the room, his eyes light up, and his tail kicks into super swisher mode. Being the one that feeds him probably has a bunch to do with it lol
The cat sleeps curled up behind my knees or feet every night. The alarm isn’t time for me to get up as much as it is time to pet the cat, and she’ll stand on my chest till she’s done.
They love me. It’s nice to see them choose to hang out with me.
My kids had a spate of wanting those plastic mechanical dogs. The one’s that bark when they hear a voice, and respond to claps and stuff. They’re ok, but they don’t even compare to the warmth of love from the real deal.
We’re not God’s dogs, we’re His children. Like our own kids, we have a capacity to rebel. As a dad there is no better feeling then when my kids do something the way I want them to because they feel it’s a good idea themselves. There’s a lesson there.
God could have made us a lot more like the plastic puppies, but I think I understand why he didn’t.
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A common question I have to field is “Why would a perfect God create anything supposedly imperfect?” It often is used as a “endgame” to a conversation about mans fall from grace and the like. Why would a perfect God create a creature in His own image that could screw up so bad?
My answer may appear simplistic, but simple answers are most often closest to the mark. (A concept often stated by our illustrious Sidian himself)
Take a sheet of twenty shades of blue. Ask people to pick the “Perfect Blue”. You find answers from one end of the paper to the other. Point being, perfection depends on who you ask. In the aspect of Deity, you would have to ask God what He considers perfect and what He wouldn’t. Nobody else’s opinion would matter much, just like nobody else’s opinion of blue will change my answer. None of us would brook anyone telling us they what our "Perfect Blue". It's my blue, I'll pick it.
In matters of His creation, God gets to set the rules for perfect. Just like we won’t let anyone else tell us what is the “Perfect Blue”, God has His idea of perfection in creation. Our opinions don’t matter.
We don’t do social sovereignty well. I think that is because we have all but eliminated it in our social and governmental structure. We consider dictatorships repressive regimes, reveling in our democracy. Democracy for humans is good. We find a “High Sovereign” with ultimate authority is disconcerting. We don’t want anybody telling us what to do.
In God, however, we find a surprise. He allows us to go our own way. There are, however, quite severe consequences to rebuking God’s sovereignty. Is that imperfection? I wouldn’t do it that way myself, but my opinions fall into the category of “Of Little Consequence”. My ideas of perfect communal relations between God and man have no bearing
Do I understand where God is coming from? Perhaps to what extent an omnisciently challenged individual might. That is because I have owned dogs and cats most of my life.
Our current dog, picked by my wife, is one of those hairless Chinese Crested. Talk about an individual’s sense of “The Perfect Dog”.
The cool thing is, this dog loves me. For what ever reason, when I go into the room, his eyes light up, and his tail kicks into super swisher mode. Being the one that feeds him probably has a bunch to do with it lol
The cat sleeps curled up behind my knees or feet every night. The alarm isn’t time for me to get up as much as it is time to pet the cat, and she’ll stand on my chest till she’s done.
They love me. It’s nice to see them choose to hang out with me.
My kids had a spate of wanting those plastic mechanical dogs. The one’s that bark when they hear a voice, and respond to claps and stuff. They’re ok, but they don’t even compare to the warmth of love from the real deal.
We’re not God’s dogs, we’re His children. Like our own kids, we have a capacity to rebel. As a dad there is no better feeling then when my kids do something the way I want them to because they feel it’s a good idea themselves. There’s a lesson there.
God could have made us a lot more like the plastic puppies, but I think I understand why he didn’t.
Views: 1
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Phi 214 Lynn Honegger on -
Jeff,
This is an excellent explanation to a difficult question. God has made us in His image, but He also gave us the freedom to make our own choices. Thus, the difference between in the image and clones. Other religions also recognize that our actions are our choice with their own consequences even if they do not believe in a Christian god. I believe that often times the 'free will' concept is lost because it is so hard to imagine being allowed to make such huge mistakes without being saved from ourselves by a God that is "all-loving".
I have had this question posed to me. I love your plastic puppy analogy and will borrow it in future conversations.
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Permalink Reply by Yoda on -
"In matters of His creation, God gets to set the rules for perfect. Just like we won’t let anyone else tell us what is the “Perfect Blue”, God has His idea of perfection in creation. Our opinions don’t matter."
I think what you say here Jeff is really great, although I disagree with it 180 degrees diametrically. There's no proof (in my opinion anyways) that God does not consider our opinions to matter. Because there are differences in how the various religions perceive religious perfection I think -- unless I don't know enough about religions and they are all pointing to the same end result for human behavior.
Talk to someone who works at an animal shelter for a city, and they could have an entirely different meaning for "cat" than you have. Such as "a feces under the claws flea hotel." The meaning depends on the information we have in our individual files.
I think the major religions do point to a perfection though. It seems Buddhism does, in a person's last life before Nirvana.
What is the perfect economic system? Capitalism? Well which breed of capitalism? America? (Not from what I've seen in my files.) Sweden? Denmark? (Now you're talking in my judgement although I haven't studied too hard.) Or would Jesus be a communist?
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Permalink Reply by Yoda on
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It is interesting to me to see how our files change over time as well. This excerpt from a 1950 Time Magazine article is surprising IMO:
"Niebuhr notes that the Detroit Conference in the Church & Economic Life (TIME, Feb. 27), which came out in favor of a middle way between socialism and laissez-faire capitalism, confirmed a consensus already established by Protestantism in its conferences at Stockholm (1922), Oxford (1937) and Amsterdam (1948). "This consensus of Protestant thought is the more remarkable," writes Niebuhr, "in that it closely approaches the main emphases in the social teachings of the Catholic encyclicals since Rerum Novarum [1891]. Whatever may be the differences in Catholic and Protestant social policy . . . the similarities are more striking than the differences . . .
"This does not mean that either Catholic or Protestant theory is committed to socialism. It certainly does mean that it rejects the theory that every form of socialism is but a halfway house to Communism, and that every form of social control upon economic process is inherently wrong." "
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,856628,00.html
Great Scott, (make that an Irishman,) I think they were in favor of certainly universal health care among other things 60 years ago. What happened!? (For the younger generation -- WTF?!)
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Permalink Reply by Jeff H on -
I tried to be exacting in what I said. People were posting questions as to whether God's creation was flawed. I feel it was perfect because He is. Others might have differences about the matter, but it is His creation, He is Sovereign, and He is perfect.
In many other ways God want us to tell Him how we feel and think. That's part of having a relationship.
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Permalink Reply by David Bee on -
As I believe God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two separate individuals, both with perfect godly attributes, I think it likely they each have a different favorite color. I think God does care about each one of us, and our likes and dislikes, and loves each one of us for those things that make us unique individuals, as far as those likes and dislikes do not turn us from the path of righteousness.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff H on
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Do you believe that to be an absolute truth Yoda?
Yoda said:If individual views we have, then individual realities we have, as well.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff H on
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Not going to get into a "Nature of the Trinity" discussion except that Jesus said "I and the Father are One", and "If you have seen me you have seen the Father", so I thing that would extend to the definition of "Perfect Blue"
David Bee said:As I believe God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two separate individuals, both with perfect godly attributes, I think it likely they each have a different favorite color. I think God does care about each one of us, and our likes and dislikes, and loves each one of us for those things that make us unique individuals, as far as those likes and dislikes do not turn us from the path of righteousness.
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Permalink Reply by Yoda on
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What is the absolutely true reality of a domesticated cat then, Jeff?
Jeff H said:Do you believe that to be an absolute truth Yoda?
Yoda said:If individual views we have, then individual realities we have, as well.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff H on
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You said "If individual views we have, then individual realities we have, as well." Do you feel that statement is definitive of reality?
Yoda said:What is the absolutely true reality of a domesticated cat then, Jeff?
Jeff H said:Do you believe that to be an absolute truth Yoda?
Yoda said:If individual views we have, then individual realities we have, as well.
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