Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 11:34am

Chapter: INCIDENTS OF RE-BIRTH PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF THE SOUL “If one is unable to reap the fruits of one’s actions in this life, one reaps them in the next.  Thus, the law of action remains inviolable.  Therefore, never must you indulge into bad action, for action goes with the soul wherever it goes.”   - God Shiva

 

The problem I have with this is it does not allow for cleansing. Even in our human system, we allow for rehabilitation. We are allowed to learn from our mistakes and become a better person free from the consequences of our past errors or sins.

This is what the Jesus Factor is all about.

What is the BK equivalent?

Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 12:12pm

Perhaps one could think of his repented state as a "next life" and from that rebirth of his spirit he can be a new person free from his past sins.

Comment by Kernel John on February 16, 2012 at 12:32pm

What do you mean by "cleansing"?  What exactly is it?  How does it work?  What is it that is being cleansed? Who or what does the cleansing?  And how clean is clean?

Look, this is a big topic?  Let me suggest that, as in the story of Jesus (and others), one achieves a state of perfect purity through self-mastery.  Self-mastery starts with an understanding the true nature of the self.  This is the starting point for purification or cleansing - as you refer to it.  Here, the image is not so much of "washing away" but rather transforming current bad habits, tendencies, traits, predispositions (sanskaras) into our "original" ones. 

In this knowledge, this period of time is referred to as Iron Age.  Our original inclinations, those that we were first born with, oxidize (rust) over time when they come into contact with matter.  For some this oxidation/rusting process takes a very very long time.  These are the powerful souls.  For others, impurities are accumulated over a very much shorter period. 

It is at this - the Confluence Age, that we can engage in the practical process of self-cleansing - that is with the knowledge and assistance of the Supreme Father.  This knowledge needs to be taught at a University, not in a Church.  This is the path of Knowledge not the path of Worship.  James, this is the point in time where we receive instructions on how to commune directly with Father-God - no priests, no idols, no gurus, no rituals no intermediaries.  Not all will understand.

James, most people like to get together and worship in one form or another.  It looks like most people like, need or want religion.  As the Cyclic Tree shows, religion is here to the end.  I'm the first to admit that many BKs are no different from most.  However, at the centre of this movement are many many souls who understand that liberation comes through self-mastery, divine knowledge and communion (yoga) with the Father of Souls.

Think about it. 

Comment by Kernel John on February 16, 2012 at 3:37pm

re·pent/riˈpent/

Verb:

Feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. View or think of (an action or omission) with deep regret or remorse.

James, I'm not sure how repentance relates to becoming free from past sin.  Some of these vaguely understood notions may be why we are in the state we currently are in.  Then again, maybe I simply don't understand what repentance is (feel free to explain) or how it works. 

doug and I were chatting recently about how good deeds do not eliminate the "debt" that bad deeds accumulate.  Does repentance simply help us correct bad behavior for the future or does it actually free us from the negative effects (karmic reactions) of past wrongful action?

Again, exploration such as this, will not be conclusive without understanding ones own true essence as that of a soul - as previously discussed. As mentioned above, this is a big topic which looks differently defending on whether we are in the consciousness that I am a body rather than I am a soul.

Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 6:48pm

 

oh boy.. you REALLY need to be enlightened here.

Think about it logically. If you do something you know is wrong, and you want to be free from the guilt and shame and  evilness of such actions, then you have to first sincerely understand and believe that what you did was wrong, but more importantly, what is the point of curing you from that condition of guilt if you are only going  to do it again? That is a symptom of hypocrisy, I am surprised..or maybe not.. that you did not recognize it as such.

Repentence is the evidence that you are ready for the cleansing power of forgiveness. When you are truly sorry and cry tears of shame guilt and remorse because you realize how bad what you did really was only then can you be forgiven and only then can you do the good works you really want to do. That is what Paul was talking about in his letter to the Romans in chapter 7.

FIRST you are saved by grace ...then it is evidenced by your good works. If you do good works to try and earn salvation your righteousness is as filthy rags because you are only doing  good for the selfish reason of escaping punishment for your sin. But if you are TRULY sorry then god recognizes that and forgives you.

It is the circumstances of our lives that twist us into people that sin by harming others and denying truth, Our soul as pointed out by Paul cries out "help me" stop doing the evil things that I really do not want to do, and help me do the things that I really want to do but cannot. It is our physical experiences that have brought this condition of slavery of our soul to the sins of the flesh.

Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 7:09pm

Kernel

you said

[quote]

What do you mean by "cleansing"?  What exactly is it?  How does it work?  What is it that is being cleansed? Who or what does the cleansing?  And how clean is clean?

Look, this is a big topic?  Let me suggest that, as in the story of Jesus (and others), one achieves a state of perfect purity through self-mastery.  Self-mastery starts with an understanding the true nature of the self.  This is the starting point for purification or cleansing - as you refer to it.  Here, the image is not so much of "washing away" but rather transforming current bad habits, tendencies, traits, predispositions (sanskaras) into our "original" ones.[/quote]

I don't think it is a case of "self mastery" Our righteousness is as filthy rags to god for the reason I explained in my last message.

All your efforts at self mastery are in vain kernel. The only way to find God is to sincerely surrender to the TRUTH which usually means letting go of all the nonesense you would "like" to believe that makes you feel so superior to people like me and jeff and robert and admit it when you see the truth. God DOES speak to you Kernel but are you ready to listen? Are you ready to saIy "God I am sorry for denying your voice/spirit." I have no idea what it is that God is saying to you. ONly  you know the TRUTH that God is saying to you that you simply do not want to accept. God loves you and no matter what you have done or said , all God wants is for you to love truth and love others. Not to earn brownie points or salvation, but simply because it is the thing that will bring you happiness and satisfaction. Right  thinking and Right doing.. the two simple commandments of Jesus. As long as you are doing what you truly believe is right you need do nothiing else to be saved except of course ask for and believe you are a new person because your sins have been forgiven and at this moment you are totally a clean soul.

Now if you truly believe the teachings of the BK, that is all you have to do. I see much truth in what you say are the teachings of the BK .. on the other hand I remain suspicious that the religion itself, just like christianity is a tool of Satan used by some of its leaders to line their pockets with gold and give them power over individuals and groups of individuals to satisfy their own desires of the flesh.

God does NOT need people to tell you what he requires of you, God is quite able to tell you himself and all you have to do is sincerely ask him to and belief it when you hear his voice. Simple as that.

 

Of course all this is just my perception...

In this knowledge, this period of time is referred to as Iron Age.  Our original inclinations, those that we were first born with, oxidize (rust) over time when they come into contact with matter.  For some this oxidation/rusting process takes a very very long time.  These are the powerful souls.  For others, impurities are accumulated over a very much shorter period.

It is at this - the Confluence Age, that we can engage in the practical process of self-cleansing - that is with the knowledge and assistance of the Supreme Father.  This knowledge needs to be taught at a University, not in a Church.  This is the path of Knowledge not the path of Worship.  James, this is the point in time where we receive instructions on how to commune directly with Father-God - no priests, no idols, no gurus, no rituals no intermediaries.  Not all will understand.

James, most people like to get together and worship in one form or another.  It looks like most people like, need or want religion.  As the Cyclic Tree shows, religion is here to the end.  I'm the first to admit that many BKs are no different from most.  However, at the centre of this movement are many many souls who understand that liberation comes through self-mastery, divine knowledge and communion (yoga) with the Father of Souls.

Think about it./body>

Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 7:28pm

 

I do NOT believe one needs a "university" to teach one about God. The instructions IMHO are simply SINCERELY desire to know the truth and aask God to reveal it to you.. then BELIEVE it when you hear God speaking. Now you can point to people who claim God told them to do evil... and they did it.. Well the truth is they did do what "god" told them, but which "god".. The god that we are not to hold above the TRUE god of Truth and Righteousness.

The first commandment is to worship the spirit of truth and righteousness above all else, then that spirit will give you the "knowledge" of how to express that "truth andf righteousness" in your daily actions.

 

I just do not like the impression I get from the words "self mastery", it sounds to ... prideful... and pride cometh before a fall.. a spiritual pride is the biggest downfall....

I believe it takes quite the opposite.. it takes obedience to the spirit of Truth and Righteousness, not self mastery.

 

Although I can see your point that self mastery could be making yourself be obedient to that spirit. I just feel a disconnect...

The way I have perceived it is along the lines of the "let go and let God" do the work ... Just allow the spirit of truth and righteousness (god) to guide you in knowing the right things to say and do.

The flesh is weak, as I eluded to in my previous message, the physical experiences in life often twist and distort our minds cognitions and we think and do wrong things.. the soul however has a connection to God and if we listen to our  soul instead of our mind and do what our soul tells us then we can be free of the sins of the flesh.

Comment by James Germiquet on February 16, 2012 at 7:36pm

 

In losing weight the theory is to change your lifestyle, not go on a diet. Part of that change of lifestyle includes the idea that you cannot change your lifestyle by "will power" many professionals will tell you your cravings will eventually beat down  your will power. However if you learn to enjoy your new dietary lifestyle and see how the old lifestyle is not what you want, then it is not a battle of will power it is a real change in your desire. You simply do not want what you  used to instead of wanting what you used to but denying yourself it. And that kind of life is a lie anyway.

So "self mastery" to me actually means "self slavery". It is  better to desire what is good , than desire what is bad but force yourself to do what you do not desire.

I hope you can get the concept I am trying to express.

Not self mastery but a change of self desires.

Comment by Kernel John on February 16, 2012 at 8:24pm

James, you say, “Repentance is the evidence that you are ready for the cleansing power of forgiveness.”   So, repentance is evidence of preparedness for forgiveness.  Now that you have explained what repentance is, perhaps you can explain with similar clarity what forgiveness is?  And, while you’re at it, what does it mean to be “saved by grace”?

 

You go on to say, “But if you are TRULY sorry then god recognizes that and forgives you.”  If “truly sorry” means transforming the self/soul (to one degree or another) so that transgression against other souls, nature and God cease (to one degree or another), then I would agree that the negative effects of wrongful thought, words and action will produce forgiven (to one degree or another).  Is that what you’re trying to say? 

 

But earlier you pointed out that, “When you are truly sorry and cry tears of shame, guilt and remorse because you realize how bad what you did really was - only then can you be forgiven and only then can you do the good works . . . ”,  I won’t ask what you mean by do good works. 

 

I think it is important to differentiate between the shedding of guilt and the dispensation of the negative effects of sin (forgiveness [of debt]).  If you wrong me and I forgive you, does that absolve you of the negative consequences of your actions?  Is that what you mean by forgiveness or are you talking about God somehow removing the impurities that caused you to sin in the first place?  You see, I don’t understand that God removes impurities that we have accumulated because we are truly sorry.  I think He provides instruction on what we need to learn, do and understand in order to transform ourselves – remove our own impurities.  To become a perfect human being as evidenced in the example of Jesus Christ.  Too made they crucified him.  I wonder if he would have taught us more.

 

I disagree with you and would say that external circumstances are not the root cause that twists us into harming others and denying truth.  To me, that’s like saying, “The devil made me do it.”  James, I take full responsibility for the circumstances of my life.  I believe that one’s station in life is the consequence of ones own actions.  Do you really believe random circumstances are why you are where you are right now?

Comment by Kernel John on February 16, 2012 at 8:24pm

James, you seem to be saying that one does not become cleansed or purified or perfected through self-mastery.  When I say “self-mastery”, think of it like taking responsibility for ones own thoughts, words and action, as well as relationships – while, at the same time, understanding the essential nature of the self. 

 

I appreciate your claim that all my personal efforts are in vain.  I think by this you are trying to say that yours are not.  You must then be living a very full life and prosperous life and experiencing paradise on earth.  If not through understanding your own true nature and becoming the master of it, how did you do it?

 

Today, you tell me you are suspicious about the BKs - while yesterday you were not suspicious of the unsigned article you referenced about the BKs.  Where I come from I would wonder if it is your suspicion or insecurity that causes you to doubt all spiritual beliefs.  My experience of religion has always been positive.  If I felt otherwise, I too would not feel so free and confident in my abilities to explore a wide range of religious beliefs, commonalities and differences.

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